Demokrati eller diktatur?

[Kallekula]

”Demokratin är alltså, enligt Karl Popper om jag inte missminner mig, något som hela tiden måste sättas på test för att kunna existera.”

”Det finns ju så många varor som människan inte tål. Herr Carlsson för kvinnor herr Andersson för alkohol var en får vad han behöver detta kallas för demokrat. För var dag blir den bättre men bra lär den aldrig bli…”

Enligt Cornelius.

Visst och som Churhill sa demokrati är den bästa av alla dåliga samhällsformer vi prövat på. Kan nog stämma.

Ja inte är det enkelt men inte ska man väl ge upp för det och vad är som sagt alternativet. Det är ju just det som är hela poängen.

[Kallekula]

Zi

Ibland får man ställa saker och ting på sin spets. Kanske inte så snyggt men pressa tex marxister och du får se att många av dem på allvar förespråkar en regelrätt revolution i dagens Sverige eftersom "demokrati bara är en fars som håller massorna i schack, allt enligt kapitalets logik" eller något liknande inaktuellt bludder.

Eller så lär anarkisterna förespråka det p.g.a. demokratin inskränker den personliga friheten. Visst det må hända, men själva tanken är ju att den del av friheten man ger upp får mer igen tack vara rättstrygghet, yttrandefrihet osv. Så man kan inte se det svart eller vitt. Fast de har en poäng. Det kan jag ge dem. Om det nu inte hade varit för det faktum att nattväktarstaten är en utopi. Det finns ju människor som söker sig till makt och dominera andra. Något som begränsas i en demokrati.

p.s Du har väl hört vad anarkisten sa om kollektivet som brakade ihop: Det gick inte. Folk kunde ju inte följa reglerna. d.s

[Kallekula]

”Det finns ju så många varor som människan inte tål. Herr Carlsson är svag för kvinnor herr Andersson för alkohol. Var en får vad han behöver detta kallas för demokrati. För var dag blir den bättre men bra lär den aldrig bli…”

Så att jag slarvar med stavningen må vara hänt men vill ju göra goa Cornelius Wreeswijk rätta.

Från hans första skiva Ballader och Oförskämdheter från 1964

[suchanother]

Hej Kalle med kula!
Hör på ditt snack att du är en f.d. marxist som har gett upp allt. Varför så bitter? Kanske gick du med för du ville vara "alternativ" men allt stannade vid detta, du ville bara dricka pilsner och få ett ligg?
Jag har träffat otaliga såna som dej.
Jag tycker likt Hallberg att man måste hålla alla dörrar öppna.

[Kallekula]

"Hör på ditt snack att du är en f.d. marxist som har gett upp allt. Varför så bitter? Kanske gick du med för du ville vara "alternativ" men allt stannade vid detta, du ville bara dricka pilsner och få ett ligg? "

Ha ha den var rolig. Trodde detta var snack om statsvetenskap och politik och inte psykologitimmen. Har aldrig varit marxist, förkastade det ganska omgående när jag såg vad som händer när man går från teori till prakik.


"Jag tycker likt Hallberg att man måste hålla alla dörrar öppna."

Visst fast jag har några absoluta värden jag inte ruckar på (det ska mycket till att övertyga mig i så fall) tex man ska inte våldta, inte mörda, inte förespråka diktatur.

Men vill du diskutera själva sakfrågan är du välkommen igen.

[Kallekula]

"Jag har träffat otaliga såna som dej."

Som gett upp Marxismen, tja varför tror de gjort det?

[A friend of ours]

Kallekula: VAD är det du vill upprätthålla i en stat och, förutsatt att du tror på människans möjlighet till eget beslutsfattande (som du hävdade tidigare kring begreppet direkt-demokrati), varför tror du inte att människan skulle kunna klara av att sköta detta själv?

Sen så måste jag återigen påpeka att den finns en rad olika alternativ till trådens ämne. Kanske är just nationalstaten överspelad. En triangel är alltid 180 grader (med sina olika sidor), kanske är det fel geometrisk form - i ändamålet att tillgodose medborgarna det de vill ha och "behöver" (citationstecken för att hänvisa till att detta endast går att påvisa inom ideologier). Eller varför inte ett streck - för att påvisa det enkelspåriga resonemanget. Kanske behöver vi en rektangel, eller i det senare fallet en kub. Eller en cirkel, och i det senare en boll. Kanske ingetdera. Kanske behöver vi inte bry oss i andras beslut överhuvudtaget, och i stället fokusera på de beslut som rör oss och vår närmiljö istället.

Kanske borde vi fokusera på att ta hand om våra äldre släktingar istället för att köra iväg dem på ålderdomshem där de genomlider sina sista år i vuxenblöjor och förnedring. Kanske är det värden som behövs och inte pengar. Kanske är det natur och inte industrier, kanske musik och inte buller. Kanske är det lycka som behövs och inte framgång. Kanske är det kärlek och inte Wall Street.

[Drawing Down The Moon]

demokrati är ett skämt...

THE UNPOLITICAL ANIMAL
by LOUIS MENAND
How political science understands voters.

In every Presidential-election year, there are news stories about undecided voters, people who say that they are perplexed about which candidate’s positions make the most sense. They tell reporters things like “I’d like to know more about Bush’s plan for education,” or “I’m worried that Kerry’s ideas about Social Security don’t add up.” They say that they are thinking about issues like “trust,” and whether the candidate cares about people like them. To voters who identify strongly with a political party, the undecided voter is almost an alien life form. For them, a vote for Bush is a vote for a whole philosophy of governance and a vote for Kerry is a vote for a distinctly different philosophy. The difference is obvious to them, and they don’t understand how others can’t see it, or can decide whom to vote for on the basis of a candidate’s personal traits or whether his or her position on a particular issue “makes sense.” To an undecided voter, on the other hand, the person who always votes for the Democrat or the Republican, no matter what, must seem like a dangerous fanatic. Which voter is behaving more rationally and responsibly?

If you look to the political professionals, the people whose job it is to know what makes the fish bite, it is clear that, in their view, political philosophy is not the fattest worm. “Winning Elections: Political Campaign Management, Strategy & Tactics” (M. Evans; $49.95) is a collection of articles drawn from the pages of Campaigns & Elections: The Magazine for People in Politics. The advice to the political professionals is: Don’t assume that your candidate’s positions are going to make the difference. “In a competitive political climate,” as one article explains, “informed citizens may vote for a candidate based on issues. However, uninformed or undecided voters will often choose the candidate whose name and packaging are most memorable. To make sure your candidate has that ‘top-of-mind’ voter awareness, a powerful logo is the best place to start.” You want to present your candidate in language that voters will understand. They understand colors. “Blue is a positive color for men, signaling authority and control,” another article advises. “But it’s a negative color for women, who perceive it as distant, cold and aloof. Red is a warm, sentimental color for women—and a sign of danger or anger to men. If you use the wrong colors to the wrong audience, you’re sending a mixed message.”

It can’t be the case, though, that electoral outcomes turn on things like the color of the buttons. Can it? When citizens stand in the privacy of the booth and contemplate the list of those who bid to serve, do they really think, That’s the guy with the red logo. A lot of anger there. I’ll take my chances with the other one? In Civics 101, the model voter is a citizen vested with the ability to understand the consequences of his or her choice; when these individual rational choices are added up, we know the will of the people. How accurate is this picture?

Skepticism about the competence of the masses to govern themselves is as old as mass self-government. Even so, when that competence began to be measured statistically, around the end of the Second World War, the numbers startled almost everyone. The data were interpreted most powerfully by the political scientist Philip Converse, in an article on “The Nature of Belief Systems in Mass Publics,” published in 1964. Forty years later, Converse’s conclusions are still the bones at which the science of voting behavior picks.

Converse claimed that only around ten per cent of the public has what can be called, even generously, a political belief system. He named these people “ideologues,” by which he meant not that they are fanatics but that they have a reasonable grasp of “what goes with what”—of how a set of opinions adds up to a coherent political philosophy. Non-ideologues may use terms like “liberal” and “conservative,” but Converse thought that they basically don’t know what they’re talking about, and that their beliefs are characterized by what he termed a lack of “constraint”: they can’t see how one opinion (that taxes should be lower, for example) logically ought to rule out other opinions (such as the belief that there should be more government programs). About forty-two per cent of voters, according to Converse’s interpretation of surveys of the 1956 electorate, vote on the basis not of ideology but of perceived self-interest. The rest form political preferences either from their sense of whether times are good or bad (about twenty-five per cent) or from factors that have no discernible “issue content” whatever. Converse put twenty-two per cent of the electorate in this last category. In other words, about twice as many people have no political views as have a coherent political belief system.

Just because someone’s opinions don’t square with what a political scientist recognizes as a political ideology doesn’t mean that those opinions aren’t coherent by the lights of some more personal system of beliefs. But Converse found reason to doubt this possibility. When pollsters ask people for their opinion about an issue, people generally feel obliged to have one. Their answer is duly recorded, and it becomes a datum in a report on “public opinion.” But, after analyzing the results of surveys conducted over time, in which people tended to give different and randomly inconsistent answers to the same questions, Converse concluded that “very substantial portions of the public” hold opinions that are essentially meaningless—off-the-top-of-the-head responses to questions they have never thought about, derived from no underlying set of principles. These people might as well base their political choices on the weather. And, in fact, many of them do.

Findings about the influence of the weather on voter behavior are among the many surveys and studies that confirm Converse’s sense of the inattention of the American electorate. In election years from 1952 to 2000, when people were asked whether they cared who won the Presidential election, between twenty-two and forty-four per cent answered “don’t care” or “don’t know.” In 2000, eighteen per cent said that they decided which Presidential candidate to vote for only in the last two weeks of the campaign; five per cent, enough to swing most elections, decided the day they voted.

Seventy per cent of Americans cannot name their senators or their congressman. Forty-nine per cent believe that the President has the power to suspend the Constitution. Only about thirty per cent name an issue when they explain why they voted the way they did, and only a fifth hold consistent opinions on issues over time. Rephrasing poll questions reveals that many people don’t understand the issues that they have just offered an opinion on. According to polls conducted in 1987 and 1989, for example, between twenty and twenty-five per cent of the public thinks that too little is being spent on welfare, and between sixty-three and sixty-five per cent feels that too little is being spent on assistance to the poor. And voters apparently do punish politicians for acts of God. In a paper written in 2004, the Princeton political scientists Christopher Achen and Larry Bartels estimate that “2.8 million people voted against Al Gore in 2000 because their states were too dry or too wet” as a consequence of that year’s weather patterns. Achen and Bartels think that these voters cost Gore seven states, any one of which would have given him the election.

All political systems make their claim to legitimacy by some theory, whether it’s the divine right of kings or the iron law of history. Divine rights and iron laws are not subject to empirical confirmation, which is one reason that democracy’s claims have always seemed superior. What polls and surveys suggest, though, is that the belief that elections express the true preferences of the people may be nearly as imaginary. When you move downward through what Converse called the public’s “belief strata,” candidates are quickly separated from ideology and issues, and they become attached, in voters’ minds, to idiosyncratic clusters of ideas and attitudes. The most widely known fact about George H. W. Bush in the 1992 election was that he hated broccoli. Eighty-six per cent of likely voters in that election knew that the Bushes’ dog’s name was Millie; only fifteen per cent knew that Bush and Clinton both favored the death penalty. It’s not that people know nothing. It’s just that politics is not what they know.

In the face of this evidence, three theories have arisen. The first is that electoral outcomes, as far as “the will of the people” is concerned, are essentially arbitrary. The fraction of the electorate that responds to substantive political arguments is hugely outweighed by the fraction that responds to slogans, misinformation, “fire alarms” (sensational news), “October surprises” (last-minute sensational news), random personal associations, and “gotchas.” Even when people think that they are thinking in political terms, even when they believe that they are analyzing candidates on the basis of their positions on issues, they are usually operating behind a veil of political ignorance. They simply don’t understand, as a practical matter, what it means to be “fiscally conservative,” or to have “faith in the private sector,” or to pursue an “interventionist foreign policy.” They can’t hook up positions with policies. From the point of view of democratic theory, American political history is just a random walk through a series of electoral options. Some years, things turn up red; some years, they turn up blue.

A second theory is that although people may not be working with a full deck of information and beliefs, their preferences are dictated by something, and that something is élite opinion. Political campaigns, on this theory, are essentially struggles among the élite, the fraction of a fraction of voters who have the knowledge and the ideological chops to understand the substantive differences between the candidates and to argue their policy implications. These voters communicate their preferences to the rest of the electorate by various cues, low-content phrases and images (warm colors, for instance) to which voters can relate, and these cues determine the outcome of the race. Democracies are really oligarchies with a populist face.

The third theory of democratic politics is the theory that the cues to which most voters respond are, in fact, adequate bases on which to form political preferences. People use shortcuts—the social-scientific term is “heuristics”—to reach judgments about political candidates, and, on the whole, these shortcuts are as good as the long and winding road of reading party platforms, listening to candidate debates, and all the other elements of civic duty. Voters use what Samuel Popkin, one of the proponents of this third theory, calls “low-information rationality”—in other words, gut reasoning—to reach political decisions; and this intuitive form of judgment proves a good enough substitute for its high-information counterpart in reflecting what people want.

An analogy (though one that Popkin is careful to dissociate himself from) would be to buying an expensive item like a house or a stereo system. A tiny fraction of consumers has the knowledge to discriminate among the entire range of available stereo components, and to make an informed choice based on assessments of cost and performance. Most of us rely on the advice of two or three friends who have recently made serious stereo-system purchases, possibly some online screen shopping, and the pitch of the salesman at J&R Music World. We eyeball the product, associate idiosyncratically with the brand name, and choose from the gut. When we ask “experts” for their wisdom, mostly we are hoping for an “objective” ratification of our instinctive desire to buy the coolest-looking stuff. Usually, we’re O.K. Our tacit calculation is that the marginal utility of more research is smaller than the benefit of immediate ownership.

On the theory of heuristics, it’s roughly the same with candidates: voters don’t have the time or the inclination to assess them in depth, so they rely on the advice of experts—television commentators, political activists, Uncle Charlie—combined with their own hunches, to reach a decision. Usually (they feel), they’re O.K. If they had spent the time needed for a top-to-toe vetting, they would probably not have chosen differently. Some voters might get it wrong in one direction, choosing the liberal candidate when they in fact preferred a conservative one, but their error is cancelled out by the voters who mistakenly choose the conservative. The will of the people may not be terribly articulate, but it comes out in the wash.

This theory is the most attractive of the three, since it does the most to salvage democratic values from the electoral wreckage Converse described. It gives the mass of voters credit for their decisions by suggesting not only that they can interpret the cues given by the campaigns and the élite opinion-makers but that the other heuristics they use—the candidate seems likable, times are not as good as they were—are actually defensible replacements for informed, logical reasoning. Popkin begins his well-regarded book on the subject, “The Reasoning Voter,” with an example from Gerald Ford’s primary campaign against Ronald Reagan in 1976. Visiting a Mexican-American community in Texas, Ford (never a gaffe-free politician) made the mistake of trying to eat a tamale with the corn husk, in which it is traditionally served, still on it. This ethnic misprision made the papers, and when he was asked, after losing to Jimmy Carter in the general election, what the lesson of his defeat was, Ford answered, “Always shuck your tamales.” Popkin argues that although familiarity with Mexican-American cuisine is not a prerequisite for favoring policies friendly to Mexican-Americans, Mexican-Americans were justified in concluding that a man who did not know how to eat a tamale was not a man predisposed to put their needs high on his list. The reasoning is illogical: Ford was not running for chef, and it was possible to extrapolate, from his positions, the real difference it would make for Mexican-Americans if he were President rather than Reagan or Carter. But Mexican-Americans, and their sympathizers, felt “in their gut” that Ford was not their man, and that was enough.

The principal shortcut that people use in deciding which candidates to vote for is, of course, the political party. The party is the ultimate Uncle Charlie in American politics. Even élite voters use it when they are confronted, in the voting booth, with candidates whose names they have never seen before. There is nothing in the Constitution requiring candidates to be listed on the ballot with their party affiliations, and, if you think about it, the custom of doing so is vaguely undemocratic. It makes elections a monopoly of the major parties, by giving their candidates an enormous advantage—the advantage of an endorsement right there on the ballot—over everyone else who runs. It is easy to imagine a constitutional challenge to the practice of identifying candidates by party, but it is also easy to imagine how wild the effects would be if voters were confronted by a simple list of names with no identifying tags. Every election would be like an election for student-body president: pure name recognition.

Any time information is lacking or uncertain, a shortcut is generally better than nothing. But the shortcut itself is not a faster way of doing the math; it’s a way of skipping the math altogether. My hunch that the coolest-looking stereo component is the best value simply does not reflect an intuitive grasp of electronics. My interest in a stereo is best served if I choose the finest sound for the money, as my interest in an election is best served if I choose the candidate whose policies are most likely to benefit me or the people I care about. But almost no one calculates in so abstract a fashion. Even voters who supported Michael Dukakis in 1988 agreed that he looked ridiculous wearing a weird helmet when he went for a ride in a tank, and a lot of those people felt that, taken together with other evidence of his manner and style of self-expression, the image was not irrelevant to the substance of his campaign. George H. W. Bush underwent a similar moment in 1992, when he was caught showing astonishment at the existence of scanners at supermarket checkout counters. Ideologues opposed to Bush were pleased to propose this as what psychologists call a “fast and frugal” means of assessing the likely effects of his economic policies.

When political scientists interpret these seat-of-the-pants responses as signs that voters are choosing rationally, and that representative government therefore really does reflect the will of the people, they are, in effect, making a heuristic of heuristics. They are not doing the math. Doing the math would mean demonstrating that the voters’ intuitive judgments are roughly what they would get if they analyzed the likely effects of candidates’ policies, and this is a difficult calculation to perform. One shortcut that voters take, and that generally receives approval from the élite, is pocketbook voting. If they are feeling flush, they vote for the incumbent; if they are feeling strapped, they vote for a change. But, as Larry Bartels, the co-author of the paper on Gore and the weather, has pointed out, pocketbook voting would be rational only if it could be shown that replacing the incumbent did lead, on average, to better economic times. Without such a demonstration, a vote based on the condition of one’s pocketbook is no more rational than a vote based on the condition of one’s lawn. It’s a hunch.

Bartels has also found that when people do focus on specific policies they are often unable to distinguish their own interests. His work, which he summed up in a recent article for The American Prospect, concerned public opinion about the estate tax. When people are asked whether they favor Bush’s policy of repealing the estate tax, two-thirds say yes—even though the estate tax affects only the wealthiest one or two per cent of the population. Ninety-eight per cent of Americans do not leave estates large enough for the tax to kick in. But people have some notion—Bartels refers to it as “unenlightened self-interest”—that they will be better off if the tax is repealed. What is most remarkable about this opinion is that it is unconstrained by other beliefs. Repeal is supported by sixty-six per cent of people who believe that the income gap between the richest and the poorest Americans has increased in recent decades, and that this is a bad thing. And it’s supported by sixty-eight per cent of people who say that the rich pay too little in taxes. Most Americans simply do not make a connection between tax policy and the over-all economic condition of the country. Whatever heuristic they are using, it is definitely not doing the math for them. This helps make sense of the fact that the world’s greatest democracy has an electorate that continually “chooses” to transfer more and more wealth to a smaller and smaller fraction of itself.

But who ever does the math? As Popkin points out, everybody uses heuristics, including the élite. Most of the debate among opinion-makers is conducted in shorthand, and even well-informed voters rely on endorsements and party affiliations to make their choices. The very essence of being an ideologue lies in trusting the label—liberal or conservative, Republican or Democrat. Those are “bundling” terms: they pull together a dozen positions on individual issues under a single handy rubric. They do the work of assessment for you.



It is widely assumed that the upcoming Presidential election will be decided by an electorate that is far more ideological than has historically been the case. Polls indicate much less volatility than usual, supporting the view that the public is divided into starkly antagonistic camps—the “red state-blue state” paradigm. If this is so, it suggests that we have at last moved past Converse’s picture of an electoral iceberg, in which ninety per cent of the population is politically underwater. But Morris Fiorina, a political scientist at Stanford, thinks that it is not so, and that the polarized electorate is a product of élite opinion. “The simple truth is that there is no culture war in the United States—no battle for the soul of America rages, at least none that most Americans are aware of,” he says in his short book “Culture War? The Myth of a Polarized America” (Longman; $14.95). Public-opinion polls, he argues, show that on most hot-button issues voters in so-called red states do not differ significantly from voters in so-called blue states. Most people identify themselves as moderates, and their responses to survey questions seem to substantiate this self-description. What has become polarized, Fiorina argues, is the élite. The chatter—among political activists, commentators, lobbyists, movie stars, and so on—has become highly ideological. It’s a non-stop “Crossfire,” and this means that the candidates themselves come wrapped in more extreme ideological coloring. But Fiorina points out that the ideological position of a candidate is not identical to the position of the people who vote for him or her. He suggests that people generally vote for the candidate whose views strike them as closest to their own, and “closest” is a relative term. With any two candidates, no matter how far out, one will always be “closer” than the other.

Of course, if Converse is correct, and most voters really don’t have meaningful political beliefs, even ideological “closeness” is an artifact of survey anxiety, of people’s felt need, when they are asked for an opinion, to have one. This absence of “real opinions” is not from lack of brains; it’s from lack of interest. “The typical citizen drops down to a lower level of mental performance as soon as he enters the political field,” the economic theorist Joseph Schumpeter wrote, in 1942. “He argues and analyzes in a way which he would readily recognize as infantile within the sphere of his real interests. He becomes a primitive again. His thinking is associative and affective.” And Fiorina quotes a passage from the political scientist Robert Putnam: “Most men are not political animals. The world of public affairs is not their world. It is alien to them—possibly benevolent, more probably threatening, but nearly always alien. Most men are not interested in politics. Most do not participate in politics.”

Man may not be a political animal, but he is certainly a social animal. Voters do respond to the cues of commentators and campaigners, but only when they can match those cues up with the buzz of their own social group. Individual voters are not rational calculators of self-interest (nobody truly is), and may not be very consistent users of heuristic shortcuts, either. But they are not just random particles bouncing off the walls of the voting booth. Voters go into the booth carrying the imprint of the hopes and fears, the prejudices and assumptions of their family, their friends, and their neighbors. For most people, voting may be more meaningful and more understandable as a social act than as a political act.

That it is hard to persuade some people with ideological arguments does not mean that those people cannot be persuaded, but the things that help to convince them are likely to make ideologues sick—things like which candidate is more optimistic. For many liberals, it may have been dismaying to listen to John Kerry and John Edwards, in their speeches at the Democratic National Convention, utter impassioned bromides about how “the sun is rising” and “our best days are still to come.” But that is what a very large number of voters want to hear. If they believe it, then Kerry and Edwards will get their votes. The ideas won’t matter, and neither will the color of the buttons.

(för den som undrar vem Louis Menand är:

http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/050467.html)

[Jan]

Upplyst despotism är min önskedröm.
Har det funnits i praktiken ?
Ja jag tror att infödingsstammar praktiserat detta.
Hövdingen åtlyds blint eftersom man förväntar sig att han med sin ålder och levnadsvisdom ska leda stammen rätt.
Demokrati som praktiskt styrelseskick sprack redan i Aten och har sedan dess blivit allt sämre i praktiken eftersom majoriteten sviker. Hälften av alla väljare är dummare än genomsnittet och detta avspeglas i valet av styrande.
Sverige av i dag har bara demokrati på papperet anser jag.
Vad vi har är en variant av Djurfarmen
Alla djur är jämlikar men vissa djur är jämlikare än de andra.
FRam till och med Tage Erlander hade vi ärliga ledare och detta sken igenom på alla nivåer.
Därefter har bedrägligt beteende och personlig girighet blivit norm oavsett politisk tillhörighet eller ställning i samhället och det är synd.

[Kallekula]

”Kallekula: VAD är det du vill upprätthålla i en stat och, förutsatt att du tror på människans möjlighet till eget beslutsfattande (som du hävdade tidigare kring begreppet direktdemokrati), varför tror du inte att människan skulle kunna klara av att sköta detta själv? ”

Jag tror att det skulle fungera om människan gavs möjligheter att sluta sig samman och samarbeta i de frågor som det ansågs gagna dem. Om man sedan kallar detta samhälle för en stat är en annan sak. Detta är idealet.


”Sen så måste jag återigen påpeka att den finns en rad olika alternativ till trådens ämne.”

Jovisst, det kan jag hålla med om. Men borde vi inte möjligaste mån sträva efter att öka inflytandet bland medborgarna? Även om nu det skulle resultera i minskad effektiviteten? Eller sätter vi effektiviteten främst?

”Kanske behöver vi inte bry oss i andras beslut överhuvudtaget, och i stället fokusera på de beslut som rör oss och vår närmiljö istället. ”

Visst vi ska INTE bry oss om andras beslut om så länge de inte påverkar oss. Påverkar andras beslut oss. Tja vi är väl där igen effektivitet kontra inflytande. De storskalsfördelar som centralismen medfört. Har svårt att tänka med tex motorvägsnät genom Sverige om detta skulle beslutas genom att vi människor slöts sig samman i små projekktgrupper, samarbetsgrupper. Som sagt tex motorvägsbyggen. Det är i praktiken vad det moderna centraliserade samhället kan åstadkomma.


Kort sagt vad jag vill:


Verka för demokrati
Det vi uppfattar som demokrati, dvs sådant som vi tycker är viktigt i en demokrati: yttrandefrihet, möjligheter att rösta, skydd för minoriteter, stärka medborgarnas inflytande (all makt ska utgå från folket). Och ja jag vet att den representativa demokrtin är en kompromiss mellan effektivitet och inflytande (kompromiss av demokartin) och att det inte är lätt att väga dessa mot varandra.

Verka för att fler får demokrati istället för diktatur:
(vilket gör att jag tex tycker att USAs borttagande av Saddam är helt ok, nu har de möjlighet att införa demokrati, och demokrati sätter jag högst).

[Kallekula]

Sen har vi ju missat en viktig aspekt. Sveriges kommuner. Där finns mycket att göra. Där kan vi börja att stärka medborgarnas inflytande och möjligheter till inflytande.

Alla frågor i det moderna samhället kanske inte passar sig för beslut på lokal nivå, men det bör ju vara idealet. Innan vi skyfflar dem uppåt i hierarkin. Så stärka det kommunala självstyret. Kanske införa mer av direktdemokrati där osv.... finns mycket man kan spåna kring.

Det är ju när vi känner att beslut tas som man kunde sköta lokalt som vi blir irriterade (och det med rätta).

[Kallekula]

Jan

"Hälften av alla väljare är dummare än genomsnittet och detta avspeglas i valet av styrande. "

Kan hälften av väljarna vara dummare än genomsittet? Genomsnittet av vad? De som röstar? Räknar du med den hälft som är dummare än genomsittet i det snittet?

Tror du att du kommer få rösta?

"Sverige av i dag har bara demokrati på papperet anser jag. "

Och alternativet? Diktatur?

[Kallekula]

Drawing Down The Moon

”Skepticism about the competence of the masses to govern themselves is as old as mass self-government.”

Och som sagt alternativet är…..? Diktatur?

Klart att medborgarna känner till mindre och mindre om politik och sina politiker ju mindre de känner att de kan vara med och påverka. Skulle vi ta en diktatur känner de väl inte till ett smack om vad deras diktator håller på att ta sig till, hur intresserade är de av poltik och politiskt finlir tror du? Det enda de kan fundera på är väl hur de ska bli av med sin diktator.

Stärker man medborgarnas inflytande ökar intresset och kunskapen. Vi snackar inte om senaste rönen i stängteori här utan om politik, dvs väga olika alternativ mot varandra prioritera vad som bör göras. Klart vuxna människor kan vara med och bestämma om sådant.

På lokal nivå i USA tycker jag allt att människor engagerar sig OCH deras röst blir där hörd i större utsträckning än i en vanlig kommun i Sverige (mina erf).

[Drawing Down The Moon]

"Klart att medborgarna känner till mindre och mindre om politik och sina politiker ju mindre de känner att de kan vara med och påverka."

Demokratin kommer alltid att falla i den gropen så länge det är länder som demokratiskt ska styras.

"Skulle vi ta en diktatur känner de väl inte till ett smack om vad deras diktator håller på att ta sig till, hur intresserade är de av poltik och politiskt finlir tror du? Det enda de kan fundera på är väl hur de ska bli av med sin diktator."

Så är fallet även i våra demokratiska länder - USA och oljekriget, Sverige och SSU. Sedan så vet vi att det inte alls var så som du målar upp det i exempelvis Nazityskland. Medborgarna visste förvånansvärt mycket om vad som försegick, nöjda var de också.

"Och som sagt alternativet är…..? Diktatur?"

Nej, jag tror inte att en person är kapabel till att ensam styra ett land. Jag advocerar istället mindre tribala samhällen där man inom stammen samlas under samma värderingssystem. Här bör ledarna styra och bönderna arbeta - uppgiften tilldelas till den som är bäst lämpad. Men förstå också att jag ser att detta ska ske utan tvång, du bör vara fri att söka lycka på andra håll om du så önskar.

Förhoppningen är att man inom stammen kommer att känna en sammanhållning och en kärlek som är total oexistent idag. I den moderna demokratin är jag omringad av främmlingar som jag vet aldrig skulle hjälpa eller be sig hjälpas; en samling individer istället för en homogen grupp.

[Kallekula]

”Så är fallet även i våra demokratiska länder - USA och oljekriget, Sverige och SSU. Sedan så vet vi att det inte alls var så som du målar upp det i exempelvis Nazityskland. Medborgarna visste förvånansvärt mycket om vad som försegick, nöjda var de också. ”


Kruxet med att säga att man inte vet så mycket är hur man vet det? Visst sker saker och ting i det fördolda och det poppar upp avslöjanden, då och då men hur mycket skit som finns det vet vi inte. Nazityskland sorgligt kapitel i mänsklighetens historia, fattar inte riktigt vad du menar med att jag målat upp det på något speciellt sätt?


”Nej, jag tror inte att en person är kapabel till att ensam styra ett land. Jag advocerar istället mindre tribala samhällen där man inom stammen samlas under samma värderingssystem. Här bör ledarna styra och bönderna arbeta - uppgiften tilldelas till den som är bäst lämpad. Men förstå också att jag ser att detta ska ske utan tvång, du bör vara fri att söka lycka på andra håll om du så önskar. ”

Ok. Har för mig vi var inne på detta tema för ett tag sedan? Hursomhelst det står dig fritt redan idag att skapa ett sådant samhälle. Armish i USA är ett exempel.

Jag är för bekväm av mig för att leva på det sättet. Dessutom kommer jag från landet och trivs bättre i anonymiteten i en storstad. Men smaken är som baken.

Men håller med dig så till vida att centralisms har många nackdelar. Speciellt om man, som det verkar nu med Persson centraliserar makten för centraliserandet egen skull,brrrrr.