Bridging the Gap Between the Map & the Territory
Ken Wilber & Andrew Cohen in dialogue
ANDREW COHEN: Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the word “integral” and wondering what it really means to have an integral perspective. This is obviously what your own work is all about, and it's a concept that more and more people are becoming familiar with these days. The words “integral” and “second tier” are being used as catchphrases to point to the next stage of development for many of us in this postmodern culture. So I thought it would be good to speak specifically about what integral, or second tier, really means, especially in relationship to the spiritual dimension of life.
My own understanding of integral is that, to put it simply, it points to a more integrated and comprehensive perspective not only on our own experience but on the very structure of the cosmos. But what I want to talk to you about is an important distinction I've become aware of between the direct, intuitive recognition of an integrated cosmos and a similar understanding that is more intellectually based.
KEN WILBER: Yes, I understand the distinction. Your talk and your walk.
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samt (forts..)WILBER:—don't have their personal or transpersonal act together. Well, that gets us to a second point, which is that the cognitive line of development—which is usually necessary but not sufficient for other development—can run quite ahead of the individual's center of gravity. So there are a lot of people talking integral because that's just what's out there. And everybody wants to be integral. But if somebody is integral cognitively, they can still have a center of gravity, frankly, that's several stages lower. It happens quite often. And it's a little disorienting because they talk one thing and walk another.
COHEN: Yes. It's a strange mix and it certainly is disorienting, because for most of us, our deepest emotionally based convictions tend to be our spiritual convictions. So when one cognitively has a second tier understanding but one is emotionally identified with the sentimental and even superstitious spiritual beliefs of a lower level—
WILBER:—it's a problem.
COHEN: There's this dissonance—because there's a profound contradiction between a second tier perspective and the emotionally based spiritual convictions of a lower stage.